Groupies

This will be the last post in The Criticism Series unless anyone has follow-up questions.  Grace wrote that she and her writing buddy are starting a critique group, and then she asked, I’ve never really critiqued anyone’s writing before, I’ve only had people critique mine. Since I’m going to critique group next week, does anyone have any idea how to provide good, honest critique?
Many of you reading this probably have critique group experience, and I hope you’ll share your thoughts.

Every group is different.  Some meet only online.  Some are small, three or four writers.  Some are big, with a floating membership; different people show up from meeting to meeting.  Groups meet weekly, biweekly, monthly, or as needed.

Some are highly structured.  Maybe only three writers present work at each meeting and presenting rotates.  The time spent on each piece is limited and monitored.  There may be a group leader.  There may be a page limit of, say, ten pages.

Others are more free-wheeling: discussion can last as long as it lasts; as many people can present as have work; no length limit.

Or anything in between.

Some groups email work to one another before getting together.  I prefer this.  My first reaction to something isn’t always trustworthy.  I like to sit with a piece for a while.

In some groups, the piece is read aloud, usually not by its author, because problems tend to jump out when you hear your work, and, if a reader stumbles, there may be a wording problem at that spot.

Whether you receive material ahead of time or not, it’s important to have a copy for everyone at the meeting to follow along with the reader.  Otherwise the words go by too fast, and people miss thingsh or may mishear.

Writers have different expectations from critique groups.  I tend to line edit everything I read, and I welcome line edits from others, but some critique members don’t want that; they want to hear about only the major plot and character issues (which I address as well when I see them).  One time, I joined a critique group and plowed in with all my tiny edits only to have the other members look at me in shock and dismay.  Best to discuss this in advance.

(What is a line edit?  It’s the little things like word repetition, sentence sameness, uncertainty about who’s speaking, and so on.)

Before you join a group, it’s worth considering what you’d like to get out of it.  Do you want line edits or just big-picture criticism?  Are you okay with sharing parts of your manuscript, or do you want a group that is willing to look at the entire thing?  Would you be willing to put in the time to go over someone else’s three hundred pages?  Do you even have that kind of time?

If there isn’t much to choose from in your area, you may have to take what you can get, but it still makes sense to think about.  Once you’re in a group you may be able to move it in the direction you prefer.

Okay.  Let’s assume you’re in Grace’s enviable situation.  You’ve just formed a critique group.  How do you “provide good, honest critique?”

If you receive the work ahead of time, read it over twice with some time between readings if possible.  I suggest you mark it up in pencil (not red), so you can change your mind.  When I go over something, I usually write my line edits on the manuscript.  If I think something should be deleted, I put parentheses around it.  I never strike through someone’s words, because that feels like an assault to me.  And all my comments are just suggestions.

For broad issues, I keep a separate list, generally a short list.  Big comments might be that a certain character isn’t likable (and then I show the places that led me to this conclusion) or that I don’t believe a particular character would behave as portrayed.

I just went back to my post from last November 18th on revision, and I suggest you revisit it too, because much of what applies to revising your own writing, applies to editing the writing of others.  In your critiques you can go into all the elements that I listed then, including plot, character, setting, voice, detail.

Possibly the most important and useful thing to watch for in a manuscript is your own confusion.  Did you fail to understand something?  If you did, it is likely not your fault.  Something is probably missing, or something has misled you in a way that the author didn’t intend.  Pointing out the place of your confusion is likely to be helpful to your critique buddy.

Your very valuable quality, maybe the most valuable, is that you are a good reader.  You’ve read lots of books; you know what you like and what irritates you, and you bring that background to your critiquing.

Of course you should say what you like before launching into the problems.  Every editorial letter I’ve ever gotten has begun with the good stuff.  There have been a few times, however, when I haven’t liked anything, and then I don’t say that, but I jump right into the criticism.  That is what we’re there for.  In those instances, however, I may not point out every little thing that bothered me.  The small stuff can wait until the major problems have been fixed.

Don’t be the critique member who says nothing.  Push yourself.  You can be silent for a few meetings, but after that, try to speak up.  If you don’t, other members may conclude you’re there only to receive feedback and not to give any, even though the truth may be simple shyness or lack of confidence.

I was in a certain critique group for years.  We all knew each other.  Most of us had become friends.  We’d shared many pieces of writing.  And yet, whenever it was my turn to receive criticism, I was scared.  Every single time!  For years!  Sometimes I went first, but I never wanted to.  I always wanted to ease into it.  Then, all I really wanted to hear was that every word I’d written was a marvel.  But once we got into my story and people started giving their helpful comments, after a few minutes, I calmed down and my blood pressure returned to normal and I appreciated what was coming my way.

Some of you have written that you don’t like to show your work until it’s as good as you can make it.  That’s fine if – if you don’t get locked in an endless cycle of revision that keeps you from going on to new writing and if you are ever satisfied enough to expose your work to helpful eyes.

The wonderful thing about criticism, the part that makes even the rare hurt worthwhile, is that you get a fresh perspective.  Your critiquers will see your words in ways that will surprise you.  They’ll find themes and ideas and, naturally, problems that you were blind to.  But you’ll never be completely blind again.  You may repeat your mistakes, but you’ll be broadened, and you’ll begin not to repeat.  The smallest thing, even a suggested word choice that is outside your range will expand you.

Some of what makes us writers is our curiosity about people.  When you’re part of a critique group and you read other writers’ halting efforts, you change perspective.  It’s a different kind of intimacy from a friendship, although friendships can develop, but there will also be this, an understanding that only writers have, or maybe that only artists have.

Hooray for critique groups!

Here’s a prompt:  Three critique buddies are meeting.  Write their session, and in the course of it, give glimpses of the manuscripts, which both reveal and disguise aspects of their authors’ lives.  Follow the members after the critique session as they reenter their situations.

Have fun and save what you write!

24 Responses on “Groupies”

  1. Megan says:

    Hey Gail, Grace and All,
    I've been reading and enjoying the blog for a few months, but haven't commented yet. I've been a member of a children's lit critique group for about seven years now. We read our work aloud then the writer listens and takes notes (only speaking if it's necessary to clarify something). We start with "what we like" and then move on to "questions" for the writer. In my experience, pushing yourself to focus on questions when critiquing prevents you from saying unhelpful things like "I didn't like…" and keeps you from offering rewrites. (Don't fix the writer's problem for them. Instead, help them see what/where the problem is and let them solve it.) I just wrote an article for Children's Literature Network on the anxiety and necessity (for me) of reading to a critique group.
    http://www.childrensliteraturenetwork.org/blog/radar/
    Good luck Grace!

  4. Jill says:

    I was really excited because I had heard there was a creative writing class at my school but, alas, it is only for sophmores!
    I tried one of those online critique websites but I get so destracted online and I really need to talk to people face to face for this kind of stuff.I have no idea how to find one locally. Any suggestions on how to go about looking up critique groups?

  5. Grace says:

    Thank you Ms. Levine, Megan and all! This has really prepared me for my critique group, we're actually meeting next week, dates got pushed back and rearranged, so we haven't actually met yet. This post came just in time.
    Anyways, I have no idea how it's going to run because my writing buddy is mostly setting it up since she has been in critique groups before and I have not.
    But I really liked this post, and it's getting me in the mind-set. My biggest problem, I have to say, is not speaking up. At my writer's group (one that is mostly just to talk about writing in general and now what we've actually written) we have "work in progress" meetings every few months where people read little bits of their writing, and though I've only been around for two of those meetings, both times I stayed quiet. I tricked myself into believing that my advice wasn't valuable and that the writer would be just fine without my imput, though a couple of times I actually had something to say. I realize now that I should have said something, because if I was the writer I would like to know what everyone thought. This time, though, I will work on speaking up, and giving both praise and suggestions.
    Thank you Ms. Levine, this helped tons.

  7. Silver the Wanderer says:

    Thanks so much for the post! Now I've got a better understanding of what to expect from the writers' group I attend, since I've only been able to make one of the meetings. I should be able to go again next month – I'm very excited!

    Oh, and one more thing. My little sister is a huge fan of your Fairy books, and she wanted me to ask if you plan on writing another one. 🙂

    Grace, hope your critique meeting goes well! 😀

  9. Erin Edwards says:

    I love how you define terms, like "line edit." Of course I have heard the term before, but I only had a general idea of what it meant.

    Thanks for all the good advice on critiquing posts! Figuring out what *you* need out of a critique and what *another* specific writer needs out of a critique is hard to figure out, but you give really good starting guidelines.

  10. Kim says:

    Wonderful post, Gail! Thank you for all the good advice. I am a member of two critique groups–one that meets physically (local children's writers) and another that works online (we're American, Canadian, and British writers). I love the diversity of my critique groups!

    One bit of advice I have is that we avoid using the word "like" or especially, "dislike." Rather, we try to say "work" or "didn't work for me because…" What people like and dislike is interesting (okay, sometimes we say what we it!), but it isn't very helpful if there isn't some reason for the like or dislike. That's where the work and doesn't work comes in. If a scene annoys me to pieces, I hope that I can figure out why it doesn't work for me, and relay that why to the writer. If I adore a scene, it's equally helpful to say why. This really helps me in the learning process! Once, I had a critique group member say, "Your metaphors aren't working for me, because you never ground them in reality." Other group members agreed, and with some discussion, I discovered that I was habitually doing something really damaging with metaphors! 🙂

    Again, thanks for this wonderful post! Off to read Megan's link!

  12. April says:

    I'm reposting Megan's link so that people have a way to go directly to the article, instead of the blog in general: http://www.childrensliteraturenetwork.org/blog/radar/?p=434

    This way, if in the future someone is digging through the archives and finds her comment, they can still find her article. Assuming that's months from now, they'd have trouble finding it on her blog otherwise.

    Cross your fingers that her blog doesn't get a serious redesign, which would break this link! 😉

  13. Mya says:

    I really like Kim's way, to have an online as well as offline group. I've been learning so much from this blog alone, I can imagine how much more helpful it'd be, to be in a critique group. Well, hopefully something will come across my way, but I"ll be checking out the library more often.=)

    The prompt was fun.=D I confused myself at first, but with hard editing, I pulled it off.=)

    Off to read those sites Megan and April mentioned.=)

  14. Erin Edwards says:

    @ April – Thanks for your link posting expertise! I hate it when I come to a link months later and it links to the general blog and I can't find the post i was looking for.

    To continue with Megan's metaphor – the time that critique groups do not help is when no one is willing to say that the Emperor/Empress isn't wearing any clothes! 🙂 (Of course, when you point that out, you should first say that you like the bow in her hair.)

  15. Jenna Royal says:

    Thank you for this post, it was really helpful! My friend and I started a critique group through email. We haven't got it all worked out, though, to make the manuscript editing easy to do over email,so this post was helpful for me!

    I agree with your thoughts on being silent. You have to speak up, even though you might be shy about it. Sometimes I worry way too much about what I'm saying to people, because I feel like I might offend them with my comments, even though I'm pretty sure they're not overly critical. I also have a thing about sharing ideas I might have about their story or characters, because I feel like I'm taking over their story, even though I'm just trying to help.

  17. Maddie says:

    Megan- your post(on the link you gave) was awesome! It gave insight into the whole writers group thing but was almost like a story itself 😀

    Mrs. Levine- thanks for the post! it was interesting (a lot of this stuff is) because I've never given a lot of thought to this stuff. I live in a sort of rural area without a lot of writers (translation: NOT New York City) Do you know if there's a website or something listing writers groups in the nearby area?

  18. Alexis says:

    Maddie, I did it with some friends who where willing to help. At first I was scared they'd just say "Your story is great blah blah" but they are actually helping with my story progress. Maybe your friends (writers or not mine aren't) will help you. (If this isn't what your post was asking I'm sorry I'm so stupid for answering a question thats not even asked)

    I read some stories and the ending is… uncompleted. I love the book but hate it ending… unended? I started reading this one girls books and she just does them all related to the same people. (Its not a series all her books are just like that theres no 1 or 2 or 3 you know?) Do many writers do that? Can I just spend my whole writing career writing about one caracter? Or their life with others added? I'm confused. Any help will help

  19. Maddie says:

    alexis- I think I know what you mean. Like when either a book ends on a total cliff-hanger or it just doesn't really end- like it's waiting for an equally suckish sequal. I know I've read books like that but I don't know if it's the best writing policy…

    that said, i do like series books, as long as there's a clear ending from one book to the next

  20. F says:

    Really stupid, but when I read your comment, Ms. Levine, where you said Erin's post made you laugh, the first (or second) thing that popped into my head was, "And, mother, I made him laugh. I made Our Prince laugh."
    Heheh. 🙂

    I frequently assign lines from books I've read to RL situations, haha.

  22. gailcarsonlevine says:

    Maddie–I don't know of a website. Alexis's suggestion sounds helpful. You might also enlist the aid of your local librarian, who may know other writers in your area.
    Alexis–Yes, you can write forever about one character. Think of Sherlock Holmes or Anne of ANNE OF GREEN GABLES and all the succeeding books. If your character keeps interesting you, you can keep going.
    F–Thanks! I love that you remember ELLA in such detail.

  23. Megan says:

    April, thanks for the improved link! (I'll remember that for the future.)

    Kim, I think that's a great point about commenting on "what works" vs. "what we like". I used the latter term in the article, but what we really mean to comment on in critique group is "what's working here." It's not so useful to tell someone you like her story because it has turtles and you like turtles. But it IS useful for a writer to know that the way she described the character's action seemed true to a turtle (turtle-like?). For example. (Turtles = lame example?)

    One other thought after reading all these great comments: Looking back at the start of our group, I think we were the blind leading the blind to a certain extent. But over time, those of us who stuck with it have all improved together. Thus, our critiquing skills have improved too. I feel like we've been traveling this road together which gives me such a great sense of camaraderie in a pursuit that's largely solitary.

    Good writing, everyone!

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